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10/14/2009

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A Believer

I follow Radha Soami and they say the master will come at the time of death. They also say meditate and die while living. Anyone who does this will conquer death. There is no need to speculate with theories.

Dass

a true Master will say to DO THE PRACTICE, if you don't do nothing you will just have to retry in a next life.
Salvation is conquered after a life of devotion, practice...
This is what was told me. It seems to have a sense.
Kabir says that if you don't realize God now, during your lifetime, you cannot realize after death. THIS is the point of view of Sant Mat.

Osho Robbins

Dass,
I agree - that is what sant mat teaches. It like you wrote "This is what was told [to] me"
However, all you have is a BELIEF. The satsangs simply keep on telling what will happen if you meditate and reach sach khand. However, the person doing the satsang has also not achieved anything - he is just telling you from the teachings - it is the blind leading the blind. This is well known in RS - satsangs can be given by anyone who is good at giving out the theory. Nobody is talking from experience - hence RS has become just another religion because that is what religions do - give you more beliefs.

Whatever anyone experiences - will be a creation of his own mind. The only truth is to REALIZE - which is not the same as what sant mat teaches. Sant mat teaches DUALITY - you are a SOUL and you are looking to get to Sach Khand by means of your meditation. You are TRYING and as long as you do that - there is a separate YOU doing the meditating.
Even the scriptures say "As long as I consider that I can achieve anything - there is no peace - As long as I consider I AM THE DOER - I will wander in the cycle of birth and death."
You are not a separate soul - and as long as you consider you are - you will always be looking for salvation - in order to save your soul. The soul does not need to be saved - because it is not separate from God - it is one and the same, because there is only one. "Paltu there is only ONE - there is no other."
At the moment - you are claiming to be the 'other'. You are mistaken. Realisation means that you lose this false idea that you are separate.
Yes - Kabir is saying realize the truth while living. But tell me truthfully - how many followers of RS do you know who even say they have realized God? They are all HOPING and in the end they just want their master to come at the time of death and save them.

Dass

there are many planes, every initiate that do the practice (meditating every day, attending satsang, receiving darshan etc) can see that time after time he is crossing different stages, planes, levels of consciousness.
If you thake initiation from a master, do the practice, years passes and you really can say that nothing is changing in you, there are no out-of-body experiences, no progression in inner sound and light, it simply means that this path is not for you, or you are not really following his teachings, or the master is not a real Master.

But (as in my experience and in the experience of many and many people now and in the past centuries) if you see the opposite, you can obviously think that you are doing a spiritual grow.
Why loosing time to BELIEVE or THINK, Sant Mat clearly teach to NOT BELIEVE IN NOTHING, STOP MIND AND NO THINKING, HAVE EXPERIENCES.
Sorry for the caps lock, is just to remark basical things of this path.
I never was in Beas, my Master is not your Master, i don't know nothing about you, but what i can say is that NEVER a true Master said to be God, never said to believe in something that cannot be experienced, never said to wait death for salvation.
A true Master (in Sant Mat and in other paths) just say "I am the slave of my Master, i am the servant of the sangat, i surrender to God's will".
And always remarks to do the pratice, believe ONLY in our own personal experience, and follow their simply instructions for helping factors (vegetarian diet, doing meditation daily etc.).
Sant Kirpal Singh (the Master of my Master) said: do not believe in me, go within and see".
In my experience, if I have an oobe, i see a different plane (many times), in there i met my Master and his Masters (sometimes this happened to people who never saw their photos), i feel peace, joy and love, and this is little by little changind my entire life transforming me from a really bad boy like I was in a totally different man... YES, i can believe that tomorrow something more can happen.

Dass

p.s. believing that the Master will save the initiate in the moment of death is just a good story for children. A way to gather people, a way to manipulate people. Everybody likes the idea to be saved after baptism or initiation. This is religion, NOT spirituality.
If you just thake initiation and then you don't follow the teachings (meditation, vegetarian diet, attending satsang, be honest etc.) the Master will not come, and you have to reincarnate. This is the teaching of Sant Mat.

Osho Robbins

Dass,
Thank you for your comments. You are right in that sant mat DOES say that you need to have your own experience. However, you are one of the rare people who have some experience. Most (probably 99.99%) of followers have no significant experience that they can rely on - so they just rely on belief and faith. Then sant mat becomes just like any other religion.

Tell me more about your inner journey - presumably you meet the radiant form of your master and he takes you to other planes. Does this happen every time you meditate? What about when you sleep? Which regions have you been to? Can you talk to the master and does he give you answers to any questions you might have? How do you know it is real and not a creation of your own mind?

Faqir chand had lots of experiences and then in the end he concluded that it is all mind creation - as all visions are created by the mind.

Dass

Dear Osho,
i dont think that i am one of the rare peoples.
I know many people who have more experiences than me and more often.
Again, i simply don't know nothing about your story, your Master, and what kind of relationship you have with him.
I personally am simply unable to have a Master that i can't see often, with whom i can't talk, see , receive darshan. In my sangat there is a couple of Punjabi who lived in Beas and now in Italy and they say that the relationship between them and their Master was like christians and Pope.
I live in Rome so i know very well how is simply impossible to talk, meet, see the Pope and that it's really a joke to think that he can be the mouthpiece of Christ on earth.
I NEED and i WANT (and thanks God, i HAVE) a relationship with my Master like the 12 apostles with Christ.
Regarding the details of my experiences, what i can say is that it't of course not a mathematical thing. Sometimes is easy, sometimes is impossible.
Crisis, crying, suffering for the desire of seeing the Master (both phisically and inside) is a part of the Path.
But sometimes there are some blessed days in wich i really can see that the Master is not a man, the Master is God using the human body of a perfect disciple. Why is this so impossible to think?
Yes, we all are God, dualism is an illusion etc.
But there is people who HAS realized this, and people who has NOT.
The road between man and God is small and enormous at the same time. And we can be at the beginning, at the medium, at the end. And this is a BIG difference.
I hope that you will met (really met, not just seeing from far) some Man like that, who has made all or a lot of this road. It's impossible to not feel something from a such person.
My story was very simple: i was not religious, not atheist, just i din't believe or know nothing about God. And that was not important to me.
Then i met my Master, i've done a 12 days retreat in his Ashram, and from the very first meditation sitting I saw so much light, I had so many visions that it was just umbelievable for me.
Now, after initiation and years of meditation, I just prey every day to have just one hour like that.
Many other things happened to me, sometimes greater also, but when you start believing (after seeing, not just a mind thinking) experiences becomes less necessaries, and you must work hard to have. Sometimes i saw the radiant form of my Master, we never talked (of what? it was just beautiful seeing Him). A couple of times He sang a Bhajan, and the sounds and notes were simply impossible to imagine. Sounds from other worlds, the mind is not able to remember and re-create with thoughts.
How i think that this is real and not a creation of mind? Ok, let's suppose im now a crazy man, in the past i was normal, and meeting my Master i became crazy and hallucinating.
If it's so beautiful to be crazy, so peaceful, so full of love... i really want that every human being can became crazy like me.

Osho Robbins

Dass,
thank you for your detailed comments.
Can I ask who is your master. I am familiar with the Kirpal singh line as I have met with many of his successors. I have met Dr Harbhajan, Swami Divyanand, Ajaib Singh, Darshan Singh and Thakar Singh - and I had lenghty discussions with them.
I was also initiated by three of them. I used to go and spend many months with them
in India. I also had experience of Light and Sound and some inner visions.

However, after all this - the question is - what does it all mean? A person who is really dovoted to Christ may have a vision of Christ - which he will create from his own ideas of what Christ must have looked like.

Here's my questions:
(1) Does GOD have a FORM? Obviously you are going to answer NO.

Okay - second question:
(2) Does The Master have a form?
Not such a simple answer anymore. Yes - he DOES have a physical form - but the real master is formless - just like God. Would you agree?

(3) What does it mean to REALISE God? What exactly is God-Realisation? Now we have at least two answers to this question.
(A) - To Reach Sach Khand and merge with Sat Purush and live eternally with Sat Purush
QUESTION: Is the MASTER also there? Does the master maintain his form and separate identity in Sach Khand? Also - do you still have a SEPARATE SOUL When you get to Sach Khand - or do you merge into the OVERSOUL=SAT PURUSH
(B) - To REALISE the ONENESS. To lose your separate identity. After this - you are no longer a separate being - you are the ONE - you always were - you just realise what always was. It is not an attainment - you do not MERGE - just realise you ALWAYS were ONE.

(4) What is your END GOAL? What do you call SUCCESS in sant mat or on your path? What is the END of the journey? DO you know anyone who has recached the END - or is it a constant struggle that just goes on forever - or at least until the end of this life? How many people reach the GOAL?

Peter

see "Sant Mat: A Comparative Analysis" http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/santmat1.html

Dass

Dear Osho,
i'm happy to have a so positive and interesting discussion with you.

My Master is Sirio Carrapa, you can find some info about Him in english on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirio_Carrapa).
He was initiated in '73 by Kirpal Singh, and after His death he become the italian representative of Ajaib Singh. After Ajaib's death, He started (or continued) a mission by himself.
I think that is good to met many Masters but is better to make a decision with the one with whom there is some special attraction.
Of course a christian who goes inside and have a deep experience will see Christ. Why not?
The inner radiant form IS God, manifesting in some shape that we can recognize.
If we are not ready to "understand" God in his formless manifestation, He simply come to us in a shape.
If we are not able to go inside, going in astral plane, He have to manifest in a phisical way. God is omni-present, so he is also in a phisical world and plane. And if a devotee is sincere and really loves Him and is always preying to met Him, He will come in a phisical form.
Nanak said that his Master was the shabd.
The Master is really God, formless and beyond time and duality.
But if your counsciousness is at a phisical level, you are able only to see a phisical shape. If you are an astral level, you can see Hin in an astral plane, with an astral form and the shape of somebody. If you reach a formless level you will "see" Him without form. Also in Sant Mat this thing is explained saying that the Master will be with you until you reach Sach Khand, then it's Sat Purush (formless) that guides you in the final stages. This same thing is explained in different ways also in Quran or in Dante's Divine Comedy or many other inspired books.
Realize God, what is? Not easy to say for us that are not realized :-)
But the way of explaining this in Sant Mat is: merging our surat (soul) in the Shabd (God). So unifying (yoga) our consciousness in the universal consciousness (atma-paramatma etc). This is possible during lifetime, so a realized man is somebody who had an experience of the "plane" or state of consciousness beyond time, duality, sense of ego. When a such man opens is phisical eyes he is able to see the phisical world as an "illusion" with that Truth inside. It's like a man in a cinema who knows that the film is simply a play of shapes and colours created by a single light from the cinema operator. He can enjoy the film of the life but is not identified with that, he knows that the Truth is that Single light that creates every image. A such man, is a "conscious co-worker in the Divine Plan" (this is a Kirpal Singh's quote) and if he is good to do that (or "chosen") can become a Master or have some other special spiritual work helping other people.
A Master is still a man, but he sees clearly "God" in everything, his will is God's will, his words are God's words (or inspired by, it's the same). So a Master (phisical Master) in some way IS God but is ALSO man.
My Master told me that is normal that if you see the Master inside the phisical Master don't know nothing of that meeting (sometimes he does but usually not or not the details). You see God with a shape, not a man.
And also in the phisical plane you can approach a Master like a man-to-man relationship, and you never will be aware of his realization, or with a disciple-to-Master/God relationship.
Many people will see my Master every day feeling nothing but there is people (like me) who's life totally changed after just one meeting.

Osho Robbins

Dass,
Thank you for your detailed reply. I like to be open so we can have a discussion without anyone insisting on 'being right'. Each person can share their beliefs or insights without insisting that another has to take them on.

Back in those days when I was a sant mat follower, I was actively seeking a master that I would connect with. Initially I was initiated by Thakar Singh, and I used to meditate regularly. I then went to visit him in Sawan Ashram, Delhi. During my visit I realized he was not the master for me. I started to follow Darshan Singh instead and was initiated by him too.

I also spent a month with Swami Divyanand when he used to sit me in meditation each day. Ajaib I only met a few times and did not spend much time with him. Dr Harbhajan I knew quite well as I met him numerous times and took him home for some long chats.

In those days I just wanted to leave my body and get to the radiant form of the master. My impression was that if I could just do this - I would know the truth about death - after all - death = leaving the body.

It was only much later that I came across the advaita/enlightenment teachings. I had many gurus in this field - but it was very different from sant mat. For example one of my teachers told me to 'get it' and 'get lost'. I said that I was told that you never leave the master - and he said "You have been told wrongly. The purpose of the master is to take you to ONENESS - then no master remains."

You wrote: "If we are not ready to "understand" God in his formless manifestation, He simply come to us in a shape."

This may be the case - however, formless is not really God. When you realize 'formless' all concepts of God disappear because the very idea of God is a mind-creation. God is not a separate being - it would also be true to say there is no 'God' because when you say "There IS a God" - you are thinking that there is a 'thing, person, energy or being' but God is the NOTHINGNESS - because anything that you say God is - will be incorrect.
That is why God is 'neti neti' neither this nor that. What this means is that you will never MEET God. It also means that Sach Khand is not a place. You are also not separate from God.

Why is all this important? It's because is makes a joke of the idea of 'getting' to God. Anything that has form is NOT God. This means the Master is NOT God. A true master has REALIZED God - and knows that GOD is all there is - in that sense he is God - but so are you.

God-Realization is not an acheivement - because it is realization of what is. If you are at home and then realize you are at home - you have not 'achieved getting home' you just realized you were already there.

YES - sant mat talks of MERGING into God. However I have a problem with this idea. (1) It confirms that you are SEPARATE (2) It confirms DUALITY - because there is a YOU and and GOD and then you have to MERGE. (3) It encourages DOING - and that confirms the EGO because only 'I' can DO anything.
The scriptures say "As long as there is a ME - DOING something - you will find no peace." Why does it say this? because as long as there is a YOU - you cannot be liberated because YOU are the barrier. Liberation means NO YOU.

You say that a realized person has an experience of a 'plane' or state of consciousness beyond time, duality, ego. He is then able to see the physical world as an illusion.

Excellent. But I have a question. What is ILLUSION and what is REAL? If illusion is anything that ENDS (like a dream ends) and REAL is that which remains forever, then you also know what is REAL and ILLUSION. Everything that you SEE with these eyes is illusion. You KNOW this once you fully understand that ALL FORM is illusion because it changes and ends. Including The Master, Sach Khand, and Sat Purush.

Everything that ends - changes - is within time and space - birth and death - is MAYA or illusion and will end. That's obvious, right? But then you say - that an experience of the 'beyond' is needed to realize this?

Let me ask you, do you know that everything here is an illusion? Or do you think it will remain forever? Sach Khand means region of truth and truth means that which never changes - and has no form.

Do you think that in Sack Khand there are forms? Does the master keep his form? Will you have a form?

Dass

Hu Osho
the idea of "Sach Khand" or other analogues in different languages and religion is something given to people who HAS NOT realized this "something" called Sach Khand.
Obviously this sach khand cannot be a "place" to go, stay and act.
Sach Khand cannot be "somebody" like "a god" to meet and interact.
This Sach Khand can be, in part, a state of consciousness, but we know (intellectually only) that in Sach Khand there is no duality, so "me and you" in Sach Khand are just "Sach Khand". And there is no "in" Sach Khand because there is no space and time.
So Sach Khand is another world to say God, or to try to describe (that is impossible) another aspect of this "God" that nobody can talk or think about.
It is very different to know or learn something with mind and to realize. Yes, me and you know that this body is illusion, this world will end, there is "life" after physical death. But if you don't exit out of the body and direct experience the state of "being" without body, that is only a belief. Right, wrong, doesn't matter. Really, it doesn't matter. It's not a "Truth" FOR YOU.
I think that this is an "achievement".
And because of this it is not so important to learn and believe in a true spiritual path or, speaking of Sant Mat, in a right way of "teaching" Sant Mat. There are many way to "teach" Sant Mat around the world, in some places is like a religion, and nobody meditates (incredible for me!), in other places the theory is never or just a little explained and there is just practice.
It is very rare when my Master talks about planes, radiant forms, and such things. He just say to sit down, focus attention, repeat Simran, and "many things can happen, just continue to focus and go beyond that". Many people still see suns, stars, moons, radiant forms, but nobody told them about these things.
Everybody is different, somebody "needs" to see visions for his grow, somebody not or just some.
Somebody see "planes" in a very detailed way full of things, peoples, places... somebody else just see lights.
All this talking about WHAT is God, what is Sach Khand, what is Maya etc. are just a kind of religion itself. Beliefs, thoughts. Many people live all the life with the idea that God is in a certain way. And for them this idea is so strong that the only way for this "Supreme Reality" to manifest to him is taking that shape. Then, gradually, this people can become able to understand that this is a shape, there is something else beyond that.
If we must talk with strict "Sant Mat language and terms" i've just made some veeery little step beyond.
Sure, now i know that i'm not the body.
But i don't know nothing about God.
God is "something" that is real for me, in me and outside me, sometimes is possible to "sense" God, I can think about Him and what is Him, what I believe about, but until I just dont "see" that me and you are illusions and everything is God, I just don't care about these ideas.
All the holy books are written with metaphors, because poetry and metaphors are the only way to write about something beyond mind.
For me, the best spiritual experience is when my Master give me his Darshan. We just watch in our eyes for minutes (it seems hours, days), fully focused. Everything disappears except His eyes.
In that moment for me there is no mind, no world, no me, no Him, nothing. And everything.

Osho Robbins

I agree - Sach Khand is not a place. However the sant mat follower considers that it is a 'place' because he desires to 'get to' there.

As long as a person thinks in terms of time and space - he is within duality. The reaspn for meditation is to practice 'leaving' the body so that the soul can go to Sach Khand.

These concepts cannot disappear until one goes beyond the normal thinking.

Sach Khand does not really exist - it is a phrase to describe ' the ONENESS'

As long as a person BELIEVES - he is within the mind and within daulity. 'Truth' is not a belief - it is using the mind to go beyond the mind.

Osho Robbins

God is not 'real' in the sense that you are using the word 'real'. God is 'no-thing-ness' or the absence of all 'things'. You could even say there is no God because how can you call 'nothing' a 'thing'? As long as the idea of 'getting' to God remains - then you have some kind of concept of what you consider God to be.

Dass

i agree with you, but you must consider that a person not "realized" needs to consider the existence of "God", "Sach Khand", duality and oneness.
Just repeating to others or ourselves that we are One don't allow us to realize this oneness. It is through practice and inner, personal experience that we can really "awake" as "One". We are just dreaming, and somebody say "yes, i know that this is a dream". But simply knowing that doesn't allow us to awake :-)

Osho Robbins

No practice can lead to realization, because the very ACT of doing the practice pre-supposes that you are not already 'there' that something is missing.

How can a practice like sitting and meditating lead to realization? It will only CONFIRM that you are a separate being - trying to merge - as long as you hold that view - you will always remain deluded.

Realisation happens when you first accept that YOU ARE ALREADY ONE. You don't need to DO anything to BECOME ONE.

This will happen if you are in the company of someone who is realized. When he/she speaks - it affects you and you may come to realize the truth - if you are open. No effort or karni is required, because you realize what is already the case - you do not have to create the ONENESS - it is already the case - just hidden by the EGO - the sense of ME - the same ME that is trying to merge - is itself the barrier.

Dass

meditation is not an action, just because it is "stopping the mind and see beyond". Surat or attention is not something that act, like the mind, but something that "see". If it is free to do that :-)
But of course, without Guru Bhakti nothing is possible. I've done a lot of different kind of meditation and other spiritual practices but all the results of that years are nothing compared with the very first day in the company of my Master.
Of course, different man needs different paths.
I feel for myself that staying with my Master is necessary, but I need also the practice to change and to absorb his teachings.
You don't need to do anything to become one, you need to STOP doing a lot of things instead :-)
One of the favourite quotes of Kirpal Singh that my Master loves is:
"What is God? God is Man, without the Mind.
What his a Man? A Man is God, plus the Mind."

So you just need to stop this mind for a little, and see what you are deeper. If for you a practice is not needed, you are lucky, good for you!
For me, i've seen the benefits of a simple, natural way of concentration.

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