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09/15/2009

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George

"Truth is not a theory or a concept. It is beyond concepts and beyond the mind."
--- How do you know what is the Truth or not?
How do you know it is beyong concepts and mind?
By what other means of perception do human have other than the mind?

George

So all there is is the One. It is God, Truth, nothing, formless, beyond space and time, it is our true nature.

Where do you get all of this Realization from?
How did you percieve all this information?

Osho Robbins

George,
Do you understand what a REALIZATION is?

If I am in love, you ask me for proof that love exists. What proof can I give? There is no proof - but I am the evidence. If you want proof - it will be when you fall in love. There is no proof other than love itself.

Does God exist? The question itself is absurd because only the ignorant can ask the question. 'God' and 'love' are both concepts until they happen to you.

I could say to you that LOVE is BEYOND the mind. What I am saying is that you cannot fall in love through logic and the mind. Falling in love cannot be defined and given an exact formula otherwise you could create the 'falling in love' on demand, in which case it would no longer be 'falling in love'.

You are welcome to question - but all I am saying is that you will not find answers, because the answers are somewhere else, and you keep searching within the mind. Why? because the mind is all you know.

Only when and if it happens to you - will it make sense. And I am not saying do not question - just that the answers do not reside in the mind.

Dass

"So initaites of sant mat repeat five words and wait for the shabd to manifest. They are going to have a long wait because it will never happen."

it happened to me, sorry!
it happens EVERY SINGLE DAY...
after initiation, of course.

can you simply think just for a second that you have'nt found a real Master, or you were not a sincere disciple (or both of these) and for somebody else different results happened?

Osho Robbins

Dass,
It has also happened to me. I have been there, done it and got the T-Shirt. I have been initiated by three sant mat masters and spent years with them - and made what most people would call progress. However, after REALIZATION it dawned on me that it is all self-deception. Of course I heard Shabd, and by body become numb and the sensory currents withdraw from the body. But so what? That is actually nothing significant. Does it mean that you have realized God? What exactly does it mean. The scriptures say "Jab he NAAM herdai dhario, peyo paap ka naas"

"When the NAAM manifest - your sins disappear immediately." The reason your sins disappear is because YOU disappear - you are no longer a separate being. You are the ONE - you always were but you just realized it.

Sant mat is a DUALITY path - that means you are always ON THE WAY and you never arrive. Sure - you have tasted Shabd - or heard some sound or whatever - but so what? Are you liberated? Is your journey finished - or is it just beginning? How do you know you are on the right path? It's all a mind-trap.
We all think that OUR path is the truth - WITHOUT arriving.
I am also saying the same - but AFTER arriving. How many sant mat followers do you know who have arrived?

Dass

sure, my Master has arrived.
secondary, experiences are good but you know that a path works when you change in the daily thinks of the life.
and i see that it works, for me.
Of course every soul is different and every mind is different... if a path does'nt work for you, it simply means that it does'nt work JUST FOR YOU :-)
Try to find what is good for you then is good, criticize so much is exactly a sign of a no-progression and really a "bad karma".

George

"If I am in love, you ask me for proof that love exists. What proof can I give?"

I am not quite sure how love is equated to your type of nondualistic realisation?

It is true that feeling and emotions are difficult to obhectively measure, but we all know we have or are capable of certain emotions like Love, since so many of us experience it and even those few who don't, see others around them that do.

Nondualistic realization is not nearly such a widespread experience. I am not saying it is impossible for this type of emotion or feeling to exist, but I am asking how likely is it to do so.

While I have loved and know many others who love and it is a widespread accepted emotion common to the human condition; I know of very very few ppl who are REALIZED.

Also, love is not the only human feeling or emotion, humans and indeed animals are also capable of hate, anger, jealousy, kindness, etc. They share one thing in common, which is that these emotions have evolutiary phsycholigical reasons for their coming into being. Specifically, anger and aggression could be used to explain protecting and defending one's family and/or territory, ensuring the chances of success of your DNA replication. The same arguments could be made for the emotion of love and the bonds formed which perhaps ensure better chance of one's DNA propagation.

But what possible evolutionary explanations
exist for nondualisitc realization? And why do so few ppl experience this emotion or feeling?


Osho Robbins

Dass,
You say "sure, my Master has arrived."

So the radiant form of your Guru (presumably Ajaib Singh or Kirpal Singh) comes to you. is meditation? or all the time?

Here's the first question? Is it s projection of your mind? Read Faqir Chand for some interesting points on this. Faqir Chand saw his guru and went to ask him - but his guru denied it all. Normally Faqir would have put that down to humility - but this time it was different. Another follower had also told faqir that he has seen faqir's radiant form. Faqir said he knew nothing about it. So Faqir asked his guru to be honest and the guru said it was hid own belief that caused him to see the radiant form.

Faqir concluded that all visions were projections of your own mind.


You wrote:
secondary, experiences are good but you know that a path works when you change in the daily thinks of the life.

EVERYONE changes - including people who follow christianity, new age, sant mat, etc. Change is no criteria.

and i see that it works, for me.
Of course every soul is different and every mind is different... if a path does'nt work for you, it simply means that it does'nt work JUST FOR YOU :-)

I am not saying it does not work for me. I am saying it is a duality path and it cannot take you to the ultimate realization of truth. Sure, you will get experiences - but experiences only confirm that YOU are still there. God-Realizations means the end of EGO (The illusion of ME). Unless that happens - you are just playing in duality.


Try to find what is good for you then is good, criticize so much is exactly a sign of a no-progression and really a "bad karma".

Who told you it is bad karma? This is all hearsay - that you take to be true.

Dass

Hi, yes my Master appeared to me in some inner experiences, and also i've seen other kind of "miracles" with phisical eyes regarding him and his appearence (trasfigurations etc).
My master was initiated by Kirpal Singh and was also disciple of Ajaib Singh.
But many kind of thinks are possible in this world, and just judging a person after seeing "strange" thinks is not sufficient. Many people have some kind of "paranormal" capability but they are not saints or buddhas.
I dont think that there is something that i can say to proof to you what I think of my Master in consequence of my relation with Him.
What exactly you need to read by me to believe me? It's impossible, I can't say nothing.
I have a very strong relationship with Him, i see how he lives, works, be in his family, relate to every kind of people. I've seen him working, holding Satsang, every kind of situation.
What i can say, is that yes, he is really a Satguru, but he NEVER claimed to be this or that, or to be God in human form or other things.
I never meet your ex-Master and I can't judge him.
I can say many thinks about the people that i have really meet and seen in many and many occasions.
It's like love, can you say what it is, or what the woman that just you love, is for you?
I personally can't have a Master that i can say only from far and once per year like a pope in vatican, I need a relation like Christ and his 12 disciples.
I feel that I have.
Secondary, i've seen many and many people having inner and outer experiences with my Master just the very first time they have seen Him, and they were just not knowing nothing about lights, sounds, radiant forms or other things like that.
So everything is possible, and also your opinion and the things in which you are 100% sure, are just mind things.
With respect,
Andrea

Osho Robbins

Andrea,
People can have visions. I do not deny that. You do not need to prove anything - and proof is impossible in any case.

As long as you BELIEVE - you will create many experiences - but that does not make them true. We create what we believe - the mind is able to create visions.

However, my point is that all this proves nothing. A vision does not prove that you are any closer to God or to Truth.

God is FORMLESS - and any vision is within FORM and time and space. The vision, is part of MAYA. In order to know truth - you have to go BEYOND ALL FORM. As long as the mind SEEKS - it is still chasing. People chase material possessions - and the spiritual person chases spiritual possessions like visions or enlightenment. Nothin has changed - the mind is still greedy. Truth only reveals itself when all seeking and wanting simply drops and you are HERE and NOW - not in the future.

Dass

there are many stages in the path.
Faquir Chand was right when he say that the phisical "Master" does not know anything about an inner vision of him.
A vision (a true vision, not a product of mind) of the radiant form of the Master is simply God appearing in the shape of the Master, not less and not more.
Second, you say that as long as I believe, I can create many experiences.
But this is not my case, because I believe just in what I experience.
At the firs meeting between me and my Master, i was believing just in nothing, I didn't know nothing about lights, inner forms of the master, sach khand or other planes.
I just sit down, closed my eyes, and I saw so much light. This happened for many days, and still in that week I was simply unaware of the meaning of that experience. I was feeling that something was happening, and that it was positive for me, but I was without theories or teachings or doctrines.
So, how is it possible? ;-)
God is formless, without name etc.
But if you are not ready for that, He can appear in the shape of the Master, of an elephant, of Christ, of a burning tree...
Why not?

Harry

Dass - your are enlightened period, you just don't know it, you can't be kind of enlightened, i.e you see lights/hear sounds only when you sit to meditation, it should be constant, anything that "ends" or is not constant is trapped in time and space and is NOT reality. And what significance does the light and sound hold? What does it mean? Becoming enlightened is the opposite of what you think it is, it is actually the non-acheivement, it means to become "nothing", no attachment to anything? And when we talk about the master, do we truely recognize who the master is, as it has nothing to do with his outer form, as most people beleive. WE ARE ALL ONE, like the ocean, the waves beleving they are seperate from the ocean, when in reality they are one with the ocean, similary the personality you are can be compared to the waves in the ocean, constantly TRYING to get back to the source? TRYING is futile you are already there. Therefore as the post was started, there is a gross misunderstanding of what NAAM is.Truth/Reality is something beyond the mind, You are either enlightened/realized or you are not, there is no in-between. Oh by the way i'm not say do not meditate, just realize what meditation is? And me personally, meditition is not just confined to 5 words, LIFE is one big meditation if you really understand the bigger picture.

svasamvitti

Dass sez:

"sure, my Master has arrived."

you don't know that. you can never know that. ever. you can never know what someone else has. so this is just your belief, not necessarily a reality.

"you know that a path works when you change in the daily thinks of the life."

changes in one's life don't prove anything.

"i see that it works, for me."

you are posting here, so it obviously doesn't work.

"criticize so much is exactly a sign of a no-progression and really a "bad karma"."

thats yet another absurd and illogical assumption.

Dass... you have too much ass and not enough D.

"my Master appeared to me in some inner experiences"

you are hallucinating again I see. didn't anyone warn you about that?

"i've seen other kind of "miracles" with phisical eyes regarding him and his appearence (trasfigurations etc)."

you should go see a shrink.

"My master was initiated by Kirpal Singh and was also disciple of Ajaib Singh."

thats too bad, I feel sorry for you. but you'll get over it in time. just try to stay away from cults.

"they are not saints or buddhas."

how would you know someone is not a buddha?

"to proof to you what I think of my Master
What exactly you need to read by me to believe me?"

nobody cares about your obsession with a master. so why are you so self-centered?

"I can't say nothing."

you can say that again.

"I've seen him working, holding Satsang, every kind of situation."

big deal... as if that means anything? lost of people work and hold satsangs. so what.

"i can say, is that yes, he is really a Satguru"

satguru is a myth. and you can never know what someone else is anyway.

"your opinion and the things in which you are 100% sure, are just mind things."

everything is mind. even your master/guru trip is a mind trip. you are lost in the mind. but don't worry, chages are coming that are really going wake you up. so you can wake up now, or have a rude awakening later. but one thing is for sure Dass, you will not escape what is soon coming.

my advice to you: drop all your "master" illusions and face reality now, so you won't get smashed in the face by it later on. its up to you grasshopper.


Osho Robbins

svasamvitti is Straight to the point - if you can handle it.

Here's the point in a nutshell - your beliefs create your reality - you experience what you believe to be true.

"What you believe is TRUE - becomes true for you"

Your mind creates the illusion of visions, sounds, and anything else you believe. You begin to believe that you are on the right path. That itself is an illusion because anything you are ON the path - ON the way - it is an illusion. There is no path - because there is no destination to get to.

Truth is not a vision or anything that YOU will experience. Anything outside of you is an illusion.

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