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09/22/2009

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George

Its fine to listen, but by the same token its also fine to disagree.

The whole problem with faith is that it is based solely on someone else's word of the truth.

What i want to know is why would any sane person follow someone who professes to know the truth. These cult leaders and tyrants and evangelists all have the same thing in common, the ability and skill of enticing rhetoric. Over time the listener becomes conditioned, the orator dripfeeds words that program his audience. Religion is worse tho cos the disciples get programmed and then reach a state where they feel its time to spread the word and program others.

This is why the power of reason is so powerful it cuts through all the nonsense. Name me one thing the REALIZED man has accomplished, something remarkable that can actually be measured or proved. There is nothing, whereas if you look at science's achievemts, the record is mind-boggling and endless.

Osho Robbins

George,
I AGREE with you that FAITH in someone else's truth is not a good idea because you are dependent on them and will never know the truth for yourself.

I am using Truth in the higher sense here.

The purpose of a living realizer is NOT so you have faith in them. They require you to be REAL to yourself - to be AUTHENTIC. They only HELP to take you beyond your EXISTING programming - they are not interested in giving you any NEW beliefs or programs. The idea is to set you free - not enslave you further.

Perhaps the listener becomes conditioned - and starts to have faith - however that is not the purpose. That is the purpose in certain religions and cults where they give you a set of beliefs.

Realization has nothing to do with outer accomplishment. It is like saying - "Show me one benefit of being in love - you cannot - therefore being in love is useless." Love does not have a benefit - it does not seek benefit. Realization is similar - it is not a matter of any external benefit. The benefit is individual - in fact it is not accurate to say even that. There is NO BENEFIT, period, because benefit requires a PERSONAL interest - a person from whose viewpoint you will measure the benefit. In Realization, the ME, separateness, individuality disappears, so who id left to own the benefit.

I agree - it appears contradictory to the mind. No person can ever WANT enlightenment because there are no benefits, and if someone says they want it - it can only be because they have mis-understoon the nature oen enlightenment. It is beyond all personal interest or benefit.

Also the realized person does NOT require you to FOLLOW them at all. His effort will always be to throw you back on yourself - so you find your own feet.

Take a look at this video on youtube by osho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBEIeRSLb8k

George

hmmm...i think there are many benefits of being in love, it thrilling and exhillirating to care for someone more than yourself. It inspires poetry, art and great sacrifice.

But REALIZATION is not love, love is about something, i.e. the love between two beings, realisation is nothing, merely the recognition there is nothing, there is no elation that can come from such a feeling, what does it even mean? its not positive like love is or negative like agrressions is, instead REALIZATION is just that, nothing.

?

svasamvitti

realisation is nothing, merely the recognition there is nothing"

is that what 'realization' is? how do you know what 'realization' is?

"there is no elation that can come from such a feeling"

is realization "a feeling"? can you explain how do you know that it is only a "feeling"?

"what does it even mean?"

you said that realization is "the recognition there is nothing", and that it is "a feeling", so you seem to already have an idea what realization means.

"its not positive like love is or negative like agrressions is"

could you please explain how you know that it is not "positive" or "negative, and not "like love" or "like agression"?

"instead REALIZATION is just that, nothing."

could you please explain how you know that 'realization' is just "nothing"?


Morris

"Name me one thing the REALIZED man has accomplished, something remarkable that can actually be measured or proved. There is nothing, whereas if you look at science's achievemts, the record is mind-boggling and endless."

**You are assuming realized people do not continue to live and achieve. Maybe Leonardo da Vinci was realized. Who knows?Perhaps innumerable realized persons have done innumerable wonderful things.

"REALIZATION is just that, nothing."

**Everything remains except the doer. It is glad living without the burden of self.

svasamvitti

i got rid of that "doer" chap. i "REALIZED" that he was a royal pain in the butt. so i told him to take his sack of "innumerable wonderful things" and go 'DO' his "doer" thing elsewhere.

now that the "doer" sucker is gone, life is way groovy.


Osho Robbins

I have just created a new posting - called TRUE LISTENING which answers some of the above questions about realization. It includes links to videos by Osho.

As Morris points out - REALIZED people have accomplished much in their own way - but their value system may be different. Life becomes a game for them and they 'play' because they are no longer in the rat race to liberation.


Svasamvitti, the DOER keeps you in the spiritual rat race to get to enlightenment - you are on a treadmill to nowhere. Once you realize there is nowhere to get to - you simply step out of the treadmill and you are free.
No DOING or GREAT EFFORT or MEDITATION is not required.

Morris

It appears that he does do doing but he is really not the doer of the done.

Who dunnit?

The doing dunnit and the doer didn't, even if he thought he did.

It's a done deal.

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